60. Vulnerability, Relatability, and Empowerment feat. Zachery Dereniowski

Apr 9

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Today I am joined by Zachery Dereniowski (@mdmotivator) a former college dropout turned medical student and mental health advocate! Follow him in Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and check out his company—Mental Health Movement!

Zachery and I dive into the following topics…

+ Zachery’s journey from college dropout to medical student and mental health advocate

+ his experiences with anxiety and overthinking and the journaling prompts to cope with these feelings

+ how to support individuals that are struggling with anxiety or mental health challenges

+ using diffusers to encourage authentic, open conversation

+ supporting someone you can’t relate to and creating space for their struggle

+ setting micro goals to transition from intense emotional experiencing to navigating your responsibilities and deadlines

+ how gender norms impact emotional expression and mental health challenges

Mentioned in the episode…

+ Ep. 39:Your Foolproof Guide to a Good Night's Sleep (+ 2 Guided Sleep Meditation Practices)

About She Persisted (formerly Nevertheless, She Persisted)

After a year and a half of intensive treatment for severe depression and anxiety, 18-year-old Sadie recounts her journey by interviewing family members, professionals, and fellow teens to offer self-improvement tips, DBT education, and personal experiences. She Persisted is the reminder that someone else has been there too and your inspiration to live your life worth living.

listen to this episode:

a note: this is an automated transcription so please ignore any accidental mispellings!

This week's DBT skills, radical acceptance. To start this many skills education, we have to talk about pain.

Pain is our body's natural way to tell us that something is wrong. Whether that's emotionally or physically, well. Pain is inevitable for everyone. Suffering is not. and suffering comes as a result of remaining miserable and not accepting our current reality. This is where radical acceptance comes in.

This means that your 100% with every ounce of your being accepting your life, your reality, your emotions, as they come this is one of the hardest DBT skills out there to accept things that you dislike, you disagree with and you fundamentally wish were different, is a very difficult thing to do. And it has profound results

Truly accepting that your current reality in this moment is feeling depressed or anxious or stressed or overwhelmed allows you to stop being in that head space of denial that that's not what's actually going on and instead make measurable changes to improve your Headspace.

So this week, when you're faced with something less than desirable, I challenge you to accept that you're in this situation, say to yourself, this is my reality. I don't agree with it. I don't think it's okay. But this is what my reality is.

And I can't change it. Sit with those emotions, sit with the discomfort that arises and allow that suffering to slowly start to decrease. Yes.

Hello everyone. And welcome back to another episode of she persisted. I'm so excited for you to listen to this week's episode. I am changing some things up here on the sheep assisted world and really updating and improving my show layout. So I have a couple of new features to these super assisted show. I had did a little bit different of an intro this week. Really going to be sticking to the audio bites that you get to hear at the beginning of the episode.

You got a tidbit of DBT education, right at the beginning that you can implement this week. And at the end of this end trial, I'm going to do some rapid fire Q and a questions from listeners.

This week is actually my spring break. Last week, we were out of town, but this week I'm off from school. And so I have just been diving into work and the podcast I listened into the most amazing clubhouse this week. All about podcasting and improving the quality of your show and really just putting out amazing high quality content.

I had a really amazing coaching call with a fellow podcaster, and I am excited to make some changes in that realm as well, to continue to improve the quality of the show and I've been doing tons of calls and interviews with upcoming guests, potential upcoming guests, just all things to really bring you guys the best content that I possibly can. And you can get the most out of these podcast episodes.

So jumping into these Q and A's because for this first week, I want to go into a little bit more detail and really give these amazing questions. Some attention, so if you want to have your question answered in next week's episode, you can either anonymously submit it on my website. You can shoot me an email at inquiries@shepersistedpodcast.com or you can DM me on Instagram.

Question one. How did you survive high school while navigating depression and anxiety at the same time? The short answer was that for a point in time, I did not navigate high school. I did not do the second semester of freshman year because I was on a medical leave while I was getting intensive treatment.

And that was something that I never thought that my mental health would get to. I don't think my family saw that my teachers didn't see that. But when you're really, really struggling and your mental health is consuming your life continuing to be an active, engaged, successful student at some point isn't possible without that really strong mental foundation, your ability to cope your ability to be persistent and have grit without that.

You're not able to put yourself into all these different activities that we as teens engage in. So I had to create that foundation from scratch for myself, learn the coping skills that allowed me to get through the day rewire the belief systems I created that I could be confident and happy and mentally healthy.

Um, create really strong relationships that uplifted me and made me feel safe and seen and heard and valued. And after that, I was able to really recreate my life in a way where, when I felt moments of depression or anxiety or stress, whatever it was that came up, I could still navigate my life was school and work and the podcast.

So now when I'm having a down day, which I would say is more common than me feeling anxiety, when I'm having an off day, I'm feeling super motivated and sluggish and feeling those feelings of depression. I really hold onto the mindset that it is in permanent. I know that when I wake up the next day, it's going to be a fresh start and I'm not necessarily going to be feeling the same feelings.

I do my best to do the opposite of what I'm doing, whether that's to get up and go outside or do something, do work, be productive. Sometimes that's not always possible. When I'm not really feeling up to all those things. I do the next best thing rather than staying in bed and doing nothing, which is watching a TV show or consuming some kind of content that improves my mood, trying to make myself feel happy, trying to do something and distract myself from these other feelings that are really putting a damper on the day.

I might watch the office for a while. Maybe I'll listen to a podcast, whatever it is that really does bring me joy. So that's my in the moment approach to feeling down or depressed and really just emphasizing that this is today.

Tomorrow is going to be different. I'm going to have a fresh start, even if I still feel somewhat depressed, it's not going to be the same amount of depressed and same emotions as today. And then long-term, I try and create really healthy routines that improve my mental health. So I try and prioritize my sleep.

I try and get up at a similar times every day. I do my best to maintain my physical health. I do things that make me happy and make me feel productive and motivated and inspired and passionate because all of those things increase my mood. So having a life that's filled with things that increase my mood on a regular basis and doing my best to cope with the impermanence of negative emotions when they do arise.

Next question is what's your thoughts on meditation? I really want to be good at meditation. Like that is a goal I have for myself. I want to be like a Buddha at some point, not actually, but I want to be able to like meditate in the morning and meditate at night and be super in touch with my thoughts. I think that is a really amazing skill that so many people have.

And I'm not there yet. I have found sleep meditation to be very helpful, listening to a meditation or doing a guided meditation myself before bed. That is something really effective that I've been able to implement in a link. My episode on sleep meditation down below. I also really like to do a meditation sometimes in the morning to set the tone for the day and set my intentions As long as I'm out of bed, I find that to be effective, some things will fall back asleep though. So just making sure to switch up my environment if I'm doing a morning meditation, but I wish I was better at meditation. I wish I could implement that more. And it's a skill I'm still working on.

Next question I got was how can you make sure to practice DBT skills daily? This is a hard one. DBT is such a content field therapy that it's almost like you're taking a class to learn all these different skills and remembering them is in itself somewhat of a challenge. So one of the ways that I have found most effective to make sure I'm practicing my DBT skills is to be reminded of the skills daily. And one way to do this is with a diary card. If you're in TBT, know what a diary card has and you're filling it out, basically tracks your mood and your urges, your behaviors, all of that throughout the day, but you're also tracking your skills usage. So once a day, you're looking at a comprehensive list of all the DBT skills. So you can reflect on what you're unintentionally practicing as far as skills. And you're also able to kind of remind yourself, Hey, I forgot about that skill. I'm going to use that tonight. Or actually that would be a great thing to do in this conversation later.

Lemmy use that skill. So even if you're not using a diary card, or that's not something you need in your life right now, just having like a sticky note or a print out of DBT skills. Next to your bed somewhere where you can glance at it and be reminded, I would say is my best tip for making sure you're practicing skills daily.

No next question is, what is your favorite aspect of your morning routine? This is a hard one because I feel like I, I know I'm not a morning person and I feel like my morning routine has lots of room for growth and it's not the most practical because we're still in lockdown. I'm not going to school yet though.

Next week I, this might be different. Um, So it's not, it's more kind of like I have a long morning and I have classes and I'm not forced to get up and get ready to go somewhere. That being said, I have made one significant change in my morning routine this week, which I've found to be really effective.

And it might be my new favorite part, which is that I get up the first time I wake up in the morning. And so I have in the past, struggled with waking up really early in the morning and not being able to go back to sleep, but after I've gotten my sleep more regulated, I'm someone that has more problem with pushing snooze over and over again, then waking up early and not being able to get enough sleep.

So when I wake up for that first time, which normally is like, Just around 7:00 AM. I will get up because I know that if I push news or I go back to sleep, I'm not able to wake up and be as alert and aware as I am at that initial time. So I ended up like snoozing until like 11:00 AM, which is so bad. And the other mindset change that I've done about waking up that early this week is that I'm telling myself that I know it's going to be hard.

I know that getting up in the morning, it's going to be difficult and terrible. And if I practice it and continue to maintain this habit for a couple of weeks, it will get easier. And for whatever reason, I've never approached getting up in the morning with that mindset, what was just like, I should be able to get up early.

Other people can get up early. Why is it so hard for me to do this? And yet that validation piece of being like this is going to be hard and it's going to get better, has been really, really effective for me in having a morning routine and being willing to get up. So I would say that's my favorite aspect of my morning routine is getting up that first time when my body tells me that I'm ready to get up and then having that time in the morning to kind of relax and it's quiet and nice out, and it doesn't feel like I'm rushing to a first-class or a meeting or whatever it is.

So those are all the questions that I'm going to answer for this week. If you have a question you want me to answer next week, be sure to DM it to me, email or submit on my website and I will answer it. And I'll also answer some more of these on Instagram. So if you're not already following me at, at she persisted podcast, if you asked a question that didn't get answered, I will be answering it on Instagram.

As this episode goes up.

So without further ado, this week's guest is Zachary Dereniowski. He's a 27 year old, former college dropout turn medical student, and a mental health advocate.

You might recognize him from social media at, @MD motivator on first inspirational TikTok and Instagram posts.

If you love what you hear in this episode, you can follow him on Instagram and TikTok at, at MD motivator, check out his YouTube MD motivator.

And finally check out his company mentalhealthmovement.com that's mental health MVMT. Dot com. All of his links will be in today's description.

Be sure to tag them as well. If you listened to the episode.

Sadie: Thank you so much for coming on the show and for joining me today. Thank you

Zachery: Sandy, for having me I'm super excited for this,

Sadie: of course. So can you tell me a little bit about yourself and your journey and what brought you to your work in mental health advocacy?

Zachery: Sure. I'll try and keep this really short to the point though.

My name is Zachary Dereniowski. I'm originally from Canada. I now live in Sydney, Australia. So my story, I guess I can start when I was in high school straight a student entered college flopped, I failed out of college at a 0.5, nine GPA at nine F's on my transcript. I remember calling my Dean and my Dean saying Zachary colleges.

Isn't right for you. Not even like, kind of get reinstated. And I remember my parents had no idea at the time. So I went down to the dinner table that day shared it, my mom stormed away and my dad said move out. So it was a really like ultimate low my life. From a relationship standpoint, from an identity standpoint of who I was in terms of, I guess like this perfect student or all well-rounded persons like failed out of college.

And my younger brothers stopped looking up to me. So then over the next year I did well, actually over the next five, six years, I did whatever I could essentially to. Prove people in my life wrong. The wrong way, I guess, to approach like getting motivated or doing the things you want to do. But obviously he got me to the point where I was a year out from starting medical school.

I was applying and I'm like, I kind of have a story here of being like a former college dropout in my transcripts. So on social media, one day I just put up my transcripts my 0.59 GPA, just put it out, kind of shared my story and I was blown away. I'll never forget this kid from Vermont random guy from Vermont.

Messaged me is one, one message. He just was vulnerable and real. And just like you sharing, I was like, it's social media to be used for. Good. I was blown away because from my understanding of social media in the past, is that it was these filtered photos and filtered stories and this highlight reel.

Right. So the fact that I could see this, I was okay. Maybe there's something there. So over the next four months, every single night, I would host an Instagram live with either a medical student resident or doctor from around the world. And through that, I came to understand that there was this mentor to mentee continuum of, I guess, people wanting to exchange knowledge and people that I looked up and inspired to become Sadie.

They were much more willing to be vulnerable and share their obstacles and adversities and setbacks, which the mentee like myself or people before me. Got really inspired by. So through that I created a formula. I'm not sure if you read it. So the formula is called vulnerability equals relate-ability equals empowerment.

So that formula that I used when I spoke about the academics is now what I use when I speak about mental health. But. Backwards for a second. So a company that's got the company reached out to me and they said, Zach, how you can travel North America and speak about being a former college dropout to inspire students.

I was like, that's amazing. So I did that for about five months before moving to Australia. When I moved to Australia, that was January of 2020. So I started medical school here at the university of Sydney like five minutes away from where I live right now. And then COVID happened. I went through a six year relationship breakup, which I didn't know at the time, but that was, I guess my source of happiness and who I was.

Medical school was challenging. I had ACL knee surgery, so my outlet, which was like sports and working out, I lost that and all these things and I was isolated. I couldn't go back home because of COVID. So all of these things came in on me to like a breaking point, and that was like may or June of 2020.

And. I went, I was like, okay. I can't be the only one feeling this way. I was like crying myself to sleep. It wasn't getting sleep. I was binge eating. I wasn't being productive. I wasn't studying, I just wasn't myself. And I was like, okay, I have to do something about this. So I sought counseling services here at the university of Sydney, which is free.

And through that, one of the things that we went over and we talked about was the fact that I am a huge over-thinker. And I never journaled my thoughts, but they said that generally your thoughts. So I was like, okay, I bought a journal, not this one, but this will have the sign me. And I've voted on one night.

I'm like, you know what, why not journal? My thoughts on social media, like journaling my transcripts on Instagram. So I did that on Tik TOK, and then it just snowballed. I became best friends with. A guy I've never met. And you know, in the States is named Jake Goodman who we not, co-founded a company called the mental health movement, which is a clothing line to start the conversation.

We started a podcast, we have student scholarships for mental health. We give back globally to nonprofits monthly and been very fortunate to have connected with so many brilliant, amazing people that inspire me. And yeah, it just been. Really fast paced last eight months,

Sadie: that's, that's amazing. And it's so cool. How much of a transformation you were able to have and how many people you were able to impact within COVID, which was a huge mental health low for so many people. So many people were struggling and looking for that reassurance that what they were going through was okay and normal.

And so I think that's just amazing. So really diving into this overthinking anxiety. But I have seen so much of your content about that, that I felt would be so helpful to share with listeners. So can you kind of talk to me a little bit about your experience with anxiety and then we can segue into your advice on that?

Zachery: Yeah, so I think my anxiety to overthinking, they go hand in hand. But thinking about always what's the worst case scenario and never actually getting anything tangible down on paper. So I thought once I, when I started, like, I guess writing my thoughts down and seeing it as this, I guess, worst case scenario and recognizing, okay, it's not that bad.

Yeah. And it was there. It was like, okay, this is one, two and three. These are the only three thoughts I have, but they go around a hundred times in my head. So not 300 thoughts, they're just three. And then I can take tangible actions towards them once I know the three things, the worst case scenario, and then, okay.

That's the worst case I'll be. Okay. So that's been something that's super helpful to me with anxiety. And I think more so about recognizing. That when I started talking to people that I've never talked to my life about I struggled with certain things or just the word struggle. I never used that it's weak

when I started saying I struggled, I started to recognize that I really wasn't alone. Like on social media. I know there's social proof that I'm not alone, but like my real life, like my friends who were medical school, my friends back home opening up more to my family. It builds a deeper relationship with them through that with my parents over the last year.

So I think Finding an outlet that works for you. For me personally, it's journaling and having the confidence to know that there's some form of support system for you. Whether it's family, friends, someone you trust, or professional support to have that outlet to go to, to know you're not alone.

Sadie: So with your journaling, getting specific, are you the kind of person who can just write out and like, everything goes in the page, do you like prompts?

Do you like writing down, like gratitude? What works for you?

Zachery: Yeah. Music, music. If I'm listening, I'm listening to music that I really like, like I'm just like, not connected to my phone actually. So I said a journal in a book. I don't journal on my phone or my laptop cause I would get distracted and I just.

My mind will wander and not be present. So I find when I'm doing that, I like to go to nature. If I'm able to like go to the beach and go to like a forest or hike and ride it out there because they're just mental clarity to allow myself to just think about them. But I guess I'm very deliberate what I write.

So likewise, so if I said there was three things. Then I'll write the worst case scenario for all three and then I'll write what are two steps I can take today? What are two steps I can take for each of those things? And just, I find that getting the ball rolling and knowing them the worst case scenario, it stops.

A lot of what was my issue,

Sadie: firstly. Yeah. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. What is your advice for supporting someone that is going through anxiety? I think starting conversations about mental health and going through my own journey. That was something my parents and I struggled with my peers, my teachers, they were like, okay, like we see you're struggling.

We see something's going on here. But a lot of us are familiar with how to support someone that's struggling with that if we haven't experienced ourself. And so I was wondering what your tips were for supporting a friend, family member, someone in your community that is actively struggling with anxiety.

Zachery: Yeah, I think anxiety or just mental health or pretty much anything. A lot of times I was talking to one of my friends. People don't always want. Answers or problems solved. They want someone to listen and validate, and I think we all can do that qualified or not. So I think that's a really important feature.

It's not like for me personally, I'm all about, okay, Mr. Problem. Here's the quick fix I already told you that that's kind of how I do my overthinking, but sometimes sitting with the problem and recognizing there is no quick fix there's beauty in that. So I think if you're listening to you, if you want to connect further asking questions Using diffusers.

That helps me a lot as well. So what I mean with diffusers, like playing sports. So if I'm playing basketball, shooting hoops, my friends I'm much more open to this fluid conversations, speak about things that are more real to me, as opposed to saying, okay, 6:30 PM tonight. We're beating at the dinner table traveling.

It's

Sadie: funny. My sister is the same way where when we're talking about something and she gets emotional, she it's like hard. If I were to look at her and pick. Okay. Tell me what's happening here. I see. So what I'll do is I'll intentionally like scroll on my phone and have tune her out because she just gets into this like space of consciousness and I'll tell her that's what I'm doing.

I'm like I'm listening. But I know that if I stare at you, you're going to stop talking. And it's really helpful. Especially with teenagers when we kind of have become accustomed to this environment of constantly being on technology. It's definitely not. I wish that wasn't a way that people opened up more, but doing that parallel processing and having that distraction.

Totally agree so helpful. And I love the validation piece. I know that was one of the biggest things in my relationship with my dad, because when I started struggling with depression, he's never been depressed today in his life. So he was like, didn't even realize that kids could get depressed.

And so it was really interesting because. He first approached it by, I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning. I didn't want to do anything. And he would come into my room and he would play classical music. Like as loud as the speaker would go. He's like, if I play something loud enough, she'll get up.

She'll go do something. She'll go to school. It'll be fine. And of course I didn't get up. I just ignored it. I was like, dad, this isn't helping go away. And it wasn't until I was in intensive treatment, I was at a residential and I had these diary cards that kind of tracked where I was at depression wise, anxiety wise, suicidal ideation wise.

And he couldn't understand what I was feeling. I was hiding a lot of things. So we couldn't. I see it, but he would look on these diary cards to be like, Oh my gosh, like she's experiencing a nine out of 10 for the worst emotion she's ever felt for depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation. And I can't even imagine how much pain that is for someone to go through on a daily basis.

And then you could be like, Hmm. I see that you're struggling. And he'd never said that before. He'd never been aware of that. He never communicated that. And yet it was so powerful. And for him just to make that space and be like, hi, I acknowledge this and I see it. And it's real. And I can't solve it for you.

He didn't get it a hundred percent, but he could see it and appreciate that. And that was so powerful, especially as a tip for parents or someone who hasn't been there

Zachery: before. Yeah. And I think that's a huge thing there you said, right? Your dad's never experienced a day of depression is life. Sometimes you can't relate to what someone's going through.

Most times you probably can't, but I don't think it's about fully saying, okay, I've been there. I've done that. It's more so. Talk to me, like, what are you, what are you going to kind of say, what can I do to listen? What can I do to help I'm here for you? Just like simple things, but like I kind of backwards methodology of how you usually solve problems and your daily life.

Sadie: Right. Totally. Totally. And it's funny because validation is so great because even when you completely disagree with someone, like sometimes when you look at someone that's depressed from the outside, you know that if you get up and get active and you get outside, that will help.

But that's the hardest thing for people to do. So completely frustrating to try to deport someone. Because you can't make them do things. You can't make them get out of bed. And yet you don't have to agree with the decisions they're making. You don't have to agree with the actions that are going on to validate them.

You can just kind of be there to appreciate the pain and the emotions and validate that and not reinforce and agree with that behaviors as well. So it's just such an amazing

Zachery: tool. I want to take a time out and because I know you're all about tangible action for your list there. So I wanted to provide some value that helped me over the last year when you're in that state, when you don't want to do anything, knowing that it would help.

So for me personally I use like a Google calendar and I do a thing called Pomodoro study techniques. I'm very structured in my studies, but the issue with your emotions is you can't say it. 11:00 AM till 12 and I'm going to feel this way.

Sadie: Right? I wish I wish.

Zachery: So what I've come to learn. And one of my friends who was a psychiatrist in Melbourne, he said this thing called micro goals.

So I've been doing that. So an example of that would be, so let's say it's Thursday, six 30, 6:00 PM. And I'm laying in bed and something of. Negativity or something floods my thoughts. And it's supposed to say, can't do it. Can't get in that state. Okay. I go to my phone. I set an alarm for 7:06 PM. So the next 30 minutes I'll listen to music.

I'll cry. I'll go on Pinterest. I'll do whatever I want. And I'll flood those emotions and let myself feel. But at seven Oh six, then I'll go. Wash my face, walk down the street, cook something to eat, do one small micro goal to allow myself to transition out of that. So I allowed myself to feel, but not take over my day or my week, which has been something that's helpful to me.

I know it's easier said than done, but I think that could be maybe helpful to at least one listener

Sadie: of yours. Totally. And it's so powerful because you give yourself that place to experience and you're not avoiding. So you're not necessarily problems worse for yourself in the future. And then from there, you're able to change your actions are able to change those behaviors, which then will change your thoughts and then your emotions as well.

So you can really come full circle and move past that place that you're in while helpfully. Hopefully moving through that and processing. And so it's, it's amazing. So some of my favorite posts that you share are about what you should say and what you shouldn't say to people that are struggling, because again, yeah.

We, we all have emotions. We all have mental health. We know what we experienced. We meet times when I have a friend or a family member that's going through something I'm like, what's helpful here. Like I have to really, we rewire my thought process to be like, how can I support this person and not go into problem solving because that's how we approach so many things.

And it's not always helpful. So I was wondering if you could kind of walk me through the do's and don'ts of speaking to someone who's struggling with motivation, anxiety, all of those kinds of things.

Zachery: That's a big question and I'm no expert. I just share it from what I've experienced. That's what I've looked up and found.

So I think obviously the things not to say is right, you're dramatic, you're attention seeking you're dizzy, just be positive or just thought of it. Right. Or relax, or like all those things. Right. Obviously you can explain why those don't work, but I think figuring out what does work, as opposed to thinking about the right terms.

I think it's more about thinking about like you were saying the right thought process. Okay. I'm not trying to solve a problem here. I'm trying to allow this person in my life to feel accepted, feel validated, listened, empathized, like the things we've said before. Right. So What can I do to help?

Whenever you need to talk, I'm here to listen to you. I can't imagine how that feels, right. Things that I guess, opened the conversation of acceptance through the acceptance, right. Versus shutting that door, which they probably don't want to open to begin with. So the fact that they're slightly opening it you never know how long that will be open for and what it means to them.

Cause that's another thing, right? When we talk about seeking support the such a. I guess tough term to say, especially on social media, because the quick response people say is when I've sought support in the past, people have shut me down. People say,

Sadie: yeah, we're hearing that right now with, with Megan Markle, where she went and she asked for support and they were like,

sorry.

Zachery: Yeah. So that's spot on exactly the perfect thing in pop culture right now where it's. That's real life. What happens to a lot of people. So I think seeking support is so hard, especially if someone has already been troubled in the past from it. So to respect that I be there and just. So,

yeah,

Sadie: that's that's I think whenever I talk about actionable steps, you can take for depression or anxiety or whatever it is that you're struggling with.

I always say that the hardest thing I ever did was for that first time accepting that I needed help, because that meant that everything was real. It wasn't that I could just avoid it anymore and put it in a nice little spot in the back of my head. It was like, okay, I'm voicing this. I'm telling someone else.

It's actually a real problem. And I was also saying that I couldn't handle it myself, which for me, I totally saw as a sign of weakness that I wasn't strong enough that I, I wasn't able to handle this, that it was too much for me. And I had so many negative beliefs around that, that I wasn't going to be good enough because I couldn't cope with this or manage it.

And so, yeah. Getting through that, that first time and telling someone that you're not okay. And hopefully having that be well received, it means that you're not only trying to avoid what you're going through, which is creating more suffering for yourself, but you have more people in your corner and they're not going to solve your problems.

They're not going to fight your battles for you, but you have support and you have people you can lean on and you have more people you can get advice from and tips and tricks, and just so much more knowledge from what you can pull. Sandy let's

Zachery: talk about that first time you sought support. Was there an epiphany, was there a breaking point?

Why did you. Seek support. I know why, but like, why did you at that

Sadie: point? Yeah, so it was, it was crazy in that I was like backed into a corner when I was struggling with depression and anxiety. And when I was really, really struggling, I was already in like weekly counseling. I was going to a therapist and we were like trying to, I think I was like working on like getting all my chores done or having effective conversations with my parents.

So I was in therapy, just not for depression. Right. And it was just slowly but surely everything was deteriorating around me. I wasn't sleeping. I would go like days without sleeping. I wasn't eating. I was withdrawing from every single person around me, whether that was my parents or my friends. I was really just going 600% into school and other activities to avoid anything.

And I was just super overwhelmed and really sad and just so many emotions that I wasn't processing. And so I actually. I went into the doctors. My parents brought me in because they were like, this is not normal. We don't know what to do.

And what we're trying right now, isn't working. So they brought me into my pediatrician and they ask you, the questions are like, have you lost interest in things you've used to enjoy? How are your relationships? Do you feel sad? A lot of the time. And it had gotten so bad, I was so withdrawn.

And so like, Removed from coping and from what I was going through. And I was also 13. I forgot to mention that I was 13 at this time. So this was a lot for, for someone my age to be going through. And so I went to the doctors and they're like, okay, you have a psychiatrist appointment this afternoon.

And during that entire appointment, I didn't say anything to anyone. I was completely silent. And closed off. I went to the psychiatrist, same thing. So I actually went to the hospital the first time that I ever got that help. And the way that I communicated that I was actually going through something and validated that was, she had me draw like a pie chart.

And she was like, what are your emotions that you're feeling? And for me, it was just saying, I said like sadness and emptiness and alone. And that was what I was feeling a hundred percent of the time. And so. And went to the hospital. And I was there, I think for a week or 10 days at that point at 13. And I had just was so removed from the idea of asking for help or coping or getting support that the ability to voice what I was experiencing or go to anyone at that point was so far from my, my reality.

And so. For that first time actually acknowledging that was crazy because I also didn't realize what depression was. I was really young at that point. Hadn't really heard of it. Hadn't had friends that had struggled with it, so it kind of felt like I was just kinda crazy. I was like, I'm experiencing all these things that aren't normal.

No one else. Just having this going on. And so I was just like, I just am really, really miserable and I don't know why. And after that came, not only a lot of support, but a lot of clarity because what I was going through was in a sense, not normal, but other people had gone through before, and it was an actual diagnosis and there were treatments and people that their jobs were to support you, which is therapists and doctors and all of that.

And so that was that first time that I ever got support on. And then the other pivotal moment was when I was in residential treatment. And I wasn't able to stay home because things weren't improving with depression and anxiety and my family relationships. So I got to this hospital in Boston, which I've talked about on the podcast so many times because they have the most amazing program.

But they asked me and they're like, do you want to be here? I was like, No, I don't want to be here. I had Googled before and if you've ever seen the movie girl interrupted it's based on this hospital, it was an asylum in like 19 hundreds. I was like, Oh my God, where am I going? I was terrified 14 years old about to like, get carted off to some like psychiatric unit.

And I was so scared. I got there. And I was like, no, I don't want to be here. And they're like, okay, we completely respect that. And we understand that and you can't be here unless you see the wisdom and this treatment and you trust us. And so that was the other time where I not only asked for help and I accepted that I needed help, but I trusted other people enough to help me.

And I gave it to their advice and our support and the skills that they taught me. And I actually opened myself to the idea of treatment working instead of just going through the motions like I did initially, which was okay. Hearing that I wasn't okay. And that I was suppressed and navigating that. So those were definitely the two pivotal moments for sure.

Wow.

Zachery: Yeah. I can't imagine what it must be like at that point to just with open arms, trust someone when you're that vulnerable. Right. And in that state, which leads you to trust me a good place,

Sadie: it was terrifying for sure. And on top of that, I just packed all of my belongings and moved across the country.

And my parents just thought they would take me. They're like, okay, she'll, we'll drop her off. She's good. Sign the paper. And she'll they'll work on this. And of course with so much compassion and love, they were so worried about me, but to hear that they weren't going to like help me unless I want it to be held helped and hers, like what, like this isn't how this works.

And so I've lost everything in a sense in the hope of getting treatment and getting help. And I didn't believe in that treatment that I was pursuing at that point. And so it was crazy for sure. And it was definitely a moment that stuck with me and I'm so glad that I trusted them because.

14 weeks later, I was waking up and for the first time in years, I wasn't depressed and I wasn't suicidal and I knew how to cope with and manage my anxiety and that wouldn't have happened unless I really did trust them and give that my all. And so I'm so glad I did, but it was again, terrifying and scary, completely.

Zachery: Amazing that life-changing moment. Like that's, I think that's most people right. With like life changing moments. It's like this really scary transition or you don't know what if, and just, yeah. You're so thankful that you went through what you did and that 14, that now you have a skill set and now you want to inspire and empower others to probably do the same.

Sadie: And we don't see it in the moment. Like I was like, okay. Did not understand the purposes and any of this. I was just miserable. I hated everything. I didn't understand why I was being forced to get treatment. I didn't think the treatment work at all of this had no purpose or meaning or journey that I could see.

So now, like three or four years later, I can look back and be like, This is why this worked. This is why asking for help at this point was so effective. And these were the resources that, that had such an amazing impact on me. But in the moment you don't see that you don't see the purpose of struggling with things that you can help other people and connect with them.

And so it takes time for sure. Another thing that I thought would be super important and relevant to touch on was okay. Red flags of sorts or things to keep an eye on, to know when someone else is struggling, what should you look out for to keep an eye on other people's mental health and check in with them and kind of be aware of when things might not be going so well for them.

Zachery: Yeah. Well, I think red flags is different for everyone, right? I think it's more so about being aware of the relationships you have with the people in your life and what they're essentially, I guess, quote, unquote normal is if I'm this super energetic, outgoing guy and. The last three days, I've had lunch in my car or lunch at the library, or just small things of just isolating more to check in on and just ask him, Hey man, how's everything doing?

Are you okay? Just like going out of your way, when you recognize, as opposed to just thinking that. Getting caught up in your own bubble, which is easy for a lot of us to do. So I, for me personally, that was one of the things that I noticed I did more was I was just more, I guess, standoffish or I guess, numb or more tired or made excuses of why not to go to certain things or they last minute cancellations.

So I felt like, yeah Lean into your intuition and try to really know based off your relationship with someone. If yeah, just ask, I think that's from my perspective of what I've learned. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Sadie: Yeah. I think I completely agree. And I think people won't always be receptive.

I remember people would ask me and be like, are you okay? And the, they can't. I'm totally fine. I'm good. Yeah. But even just knowing that someone noticed something or cared enough to ask, like, that means a lot. Even if I, in that moment, wasn't able to think I'm actually not okay. I could really use this support because X, Y, and Z has gone on, and this is what would be helpful.

But just to know that someone notices that you're acting differently and cares enough to get curious, that is so powerful. And so even if someone doesn't receive it very well in the moment, just know that it might have a really, really big impact on their emotional state that day. The other thing that I really wanted to touch on because I don't have male guests on the podcast super often.

It is called , but that's mostly because of my story. But I have you read the book untamed by Glennon.

Zachery: I have not, but I've heard of that.

Sadie: Yeah. So good. So she, this isn't like so many books, but she talks about her relationship with her son and how. When her daughters were born she trained them from day one to like think outside of the box.

And if they're asking a question and being authoritative, that's what they're doing. They're not being bossy. So she trained them to fight against this and be feminist their entire life. And then she looks at our relationship with our son when he was becoming a teenager. And she was like, I have put him in this box that I was trying to destroy, which is not expressing emotions and not saying when you're not okay or connecting and having strong relationships.

And I think that would be really interesting to kind of touch on and get your experience on, as far as the gender norms on expressing emotions and saying you're not okay. And navigating mental health challenges Because it's a huge, it's a completely different standard for males and females. And you see it so much in the treatment industry, even when you're just looking for programs for teenage boys versus girls, totally different numbers.

When you look at like sticks, as far as abuse or neglect and male versus female programs completely different. An even just like the rates as far as teenage depression for males versus. Females, the number of females that will either be in touch enough with their emotions to voice that they're struggling is so different from what we see in males.

And so I kind of just wanted to hear your thoughts on it.

Zachery: Yeah. I think that's really eyeopening to me, especially the last year. I thought females struggle more with mental health or suicide than males. I think females as a whole have. Much better support systems in place, right. Friends that they can go to for help.

So I never guessed, I guess, if the emotions are normal, like there's no breaking point when this guy was, is it three out of every four? Suicides is male. And I think that has a lot to do with the fact that we're not allowed to feel our more importantly, we don't have these cliques or groups or friends or family that we feel like.

We just go when we are not like banter, but just like express just daily what's going on. Right.

Sadie: Or ran or be like, this person is so annoying. I'm so angry. Like

Zachery: if you don't let it go, you suppress it. Where do you think it eventually grew to a point where it's like, Oh my God, how could he have done this?

It's because there was no. Yeah. So I think that was a huge thing. And I've actually. Done a social experiment. I don't know if you saw it on my Instagram the last few days where I've gone into the city. So before I say it in the last 50 days, there's been no cases of COVID here in the whole state of new South Wales.

So I put up a cell.

So I had a science says if you've ever struggled with depression or anxiety hugged me. I was blindfolded with my arms open in the middle of the city. And like 90% of the people that hugged me were guys, like, I would've never thought a random guy would hug another random guy, but mental health on the street and be so vulnerable.

So even the last couple of days, I've recognized that like guys want other guys to be receptive to, to open that door so that they can just express themselves. Right. So I think it's really important that we all do our part as males. And obviously as females to be as vulnerable as we are comfortable, to be honest, Yeah,

Sadie: it's just, it's crazy.

It's just a mind boggling to think about, because as humans we're built off of connection, when we're not connected, when we're not having engaging responses from people, our physical health declines, our stress levels increase like. There's physical representations of how much that impacts you and how much that makes you struggle.

And yet males in our society are conditioned to the, to do the opposite of connecting, which is not express your emotions, not get really authentic or vulnerable in relationships. And the impact on mental health is just terrible. And then that's exacerbated because we have all these statistics where it's like, well, females experience things more.

More than men do as far as depression and anxiety relate rates. And it's like, well, if people aren't expressing that in the first place, of course those statistics will be queued. And then as a result, there's less resources. There's less people aware of it and talking about it. And so it's just something to be really, really aware of and really, really cognizant of, because it's just, it's a crazy big problem.

And it's like hurts your mind to think about, but yeah,

Zachery: exactly. But if there's been one good thing that I think has come from COVID is I guess, The de-stigmatization or more normalization around us, the conversation to mental health, but I think there's still ways to go there and I think. It's more of, okay, what are the actual steps?

Now you can take, because people are speaking about it. Cause people are like, you're not busy in this nine to five life. You can't just suppress it with busy-ness. It's like people are making these drastic life changing decisions, but they're not drastic. They're just more aware of like, Holy shit, this is where I'm at in my life.

Or this is what I actually feel. It's like, I need to make changes and just, yeah, I think that's one positive of COVID is I guess more awareness of our mental health.

Sadie: Totally. Totally. No, I completely agree. We're given so much more time and space to just sit with what we're going through before we could just numb everything out with going from point a to point B to point C and just interacting with everyone and never getting to sit with the emotions and the thoughts that we're having.

And now you're forced to do that and that's caused a lot of pain for a lot of people because they either were so out of touch with them that it. So overwhelming and they're so out of practice of dealing with those emotions and coping through them. But it also with time, you get a lot better at that and dealing with it and coping with it.

And hopefully people are gaining more skills and that'll carry back to when we're going back to more normal version of life. And we can carry those into our relationships too.

Zachery: Exactly spot on.

Sadie: Yeah, I agree. Well, I'm so glad we got to sit down. I feel like there are so many different, amazing parts of this episode.

That'll be so helpful for listeners. So thank you so much for joining me.

Zachery: Thank you, Sandy, for having me and for everyone that's listening. As you know, already she's 17 years old moving. I just met her for the first time and she's okay. I'm so inspired by you and I look forward to watching you along your journey as well.

Safety.

Sadie: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

In case you skipped to the end. I wanted to recap this episode Zachary and I dive into his journey from college dropout to medical student and mental health advocate. We talk all about his experiences with anxiety overthinking and the journaling prompts that help him cope with these feelings.

We dive into how to support individuals that are struggling with anxiety or mental health challenges and using diffusers and these interactions to encourage authentic open conversations. We also talk about supporting someone when you don't necessarily relate to their experience, but still want to create space for their struggle.

Lastly, we talk about setting micro goals to transition from intense, emotional experiences to navigating your responsibilities. And finally, how gender norms impact emotional expression and mental health challenges.

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